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REGINA vs SMITH Part 9
By Hempology | February 6, 2006
A Generally they are they are rare because what usually we do is most of our samples as cannabis type samples come in as plant or a dark substance called resin, and they are or oils even. They are usually run using different techniques so we don’t usually run them on the gas chromatograph or the MSD. We usually only do that when they are when they are required to, like when they are an individual cannabinoid.
Q So do you have any idea how many times you may have done that then with this machine?
A Since I’ve been working there, maybe 40, 50 times.
Q And you indicated do you well, I’ll ask you, do you recall in particular on that day somebody if a standard was run on that machine as you indicated?
A Yes, we run it every day. We run a daily sample, mixture of standards every day.
Q And to be perfectly clear when you say “standards” is that a solution or a substance you already know the composition of?
A Yes, it is. It’s it’s a certified standard, and if for some we have every instrument in our laboratory has a custodian, and they run the standard mix every day. And if there is a problem with the with the standards, or the instrument is not performing properly, then the instrument is taken out of use. It can’t be used that day.
Q Okay. So let’s turn now to the second test that you performed the slightly more complicated name?
A Yes.
Q Can you describe that one for us in similarly layman’s terms, if you will?
A Okay. Basically everything is the same used and in a lot of cases the gas chromatograph that is attached to the mass selective detector is is a similar an exact same model as run on the the screen that I mentioned earlier.
The difference being when the sample or the substance finally comes through to the detector, instead of going into a flame ionization detector where basically the sample is burned, in this case it goes into what is called a mass selective detector. Now as the individual components come out they are hit by a beam of electrons and broken into pieces essentially.
Now via magnetism and various other magical things they are these individual pieces are taken down and then expanded by a what is called a I’ve forgotten the name now, but anyway what it does is it magnifies the the signal that is coming out and what it what it will give you is it will give you if you take the same substance, hit it with the same energy of electrons the electron beam with the same energy every single time it will break the same way. That is why it can be considered a fingerprint.
In other words, you’ll get the same pattern coming out every single time if you have that same substance and so therefore it’s it’s a like a fingerprint, like it doesn’t change.
Q And similarly I’ll ask you this now, with respect to that particular instrument is that also an instrument that a standard is run on every single
A Yes, it is.
Q And again, is that an instrument that you’ve used in the past?
A Yes, many times.
Q Similar to the
A Well, as I said, yeah, it would be similar because what I do is if I run a if I’m running a gas chromatograph or GC, I’ll call it GC screen, I’ll also run the the GCMSD as well, like they will be run simultaneously or one after the other depending on what what’s happening with my work load.
Q All right. And did you record any results from the second test?
A Yes, I did.
Q And do you have those with you today?
A Yeah, I managed to I only have one copy of those
Q Okay. Well let’s try and make do.
A – but I don’t know if you can get them photocopied?
I have what I did is I printed out because once again these are very old samples I we keep a record of them on a CD rom so I managed to pull them back up and then look at them again. We actually these paper the original paper records are in our archives too, so they are I apologize, but they are very difficult to get it seems.
Q Okay. So just to be clear then those are printouts from the
A These are printouts
Q – electronic back up that was made?
A That’s correct, yes. Yes, it is.
Q Okay. So can you describe for us what it is you’ve got there, there appear to be a number of [indiscernible/overlapping speakers]?
A Yes, I’ve got what I did is I printed out one for each of the that relate to each of the exhibit envelopes, and each of these my my lab notes, and just as an example, actually the one that was open was number 21, I’ll take that one out.
Where is it? Twenty-two, 21, and what I what is on the front here probably can’t see it, but what is on the front here it gets the my lab number which will match with the lab number on the exhibit envelope, and it gets my initials, it gets the date that it was actually run and the time, and that is just basically what is called “header” information.
On the on the next page what I have done is I’ve well, as I was saying with the gas chromatograph what it does is it gives you a peak, which indicates there is a substance coming out. Now below it, you can’t see it very well, but there is what is called a mass spectra spectrum that is here. And then on the third page what I’ve done is I’ve done an electronic search through our libraries that we have that have standards already run at a previous time, and then I compare that to to the to the mass spectrum that I have run on the sample, and you can’t see it, but they match very, very well, in fact, perfectly.
MR. FOWLER: So perhaps if if it’s convenient, and all right with Your Lordship, I could ask that Mr. Taylor be allowed to approach the the jury just to show obviously that’s a small piece of paper, if he could show them that, and have the ability just to point out what it is he’s referring to when he’s making the comparison? If that
THE COURT: Very well, go ahead.
MR. FOWLER:
Q So if you could, Mr. Taylor, just I know it is obviously very difficult for the members of the jury to see that piece of paper from across the room
A Yes.
Q – so I’m wondering if what you can do for us is just step up and and
A Should I bring the exhibit envelope too, just to compare the two numbers, or
Q No, I think this is fine.
A All right.
Q We’ve had that on record. What I want you to show them is the actual [indiscernible/overlapping speakers]
A Okay. What what I’m this is the header information, I don’t know if you can see that, that I was referring to, and what it has here it has the the exhibit envelope number or lab number actually from our lab, and it has my initials BPT. Okay so that just relates to that particular sample.
And this here what I did is I scanned it this doesn’t actually show the entire thing that the all of the peaks that come off the gas chromatograph, but this is the individual peak and this peak represents THC or tetrahydrocannabinol. And then that is the mass spectrum that comes off, okay?
Now what’s here is when I run it electronically by computer what it does it is match it will match anything that looks the same. Now I know you are not chemists or experts in the field, but if you look at those two, I don’t know if you can tell me any real differences, but they are they look all the same. All you can see that they are the same. Like they are an identical match really.
Yeah, those those little ones there yeah, those two those two little things, what happens is it is kind of complicated to explain but there are they are what is called grass, it is very insignificant, like it it’s not a it’s nothing that is significant in in the sample versus the standard.
And the other the other difference is when when a standard is run on and kept in our library, because of the amount of the amount of material or the amount of data that has to be stored, what they do is they will actually eliminate some of the smaller peaks because they they are not really significant anyway. The significant parts are this part here. That is the fingerprint area. This is not so that is why there is those little differences there. They are not significant.
Q Just perhaps by way of clarification on the previous page there were two diagrams there as well?
A Yes.
Q And I just wanted to clarify was it your indication that one of those at the top diagram represents a an extract from the lower one, is that
A Well, that’s yeah, this is actually an extract of this.
Q Oh okay.
A So this this is the peak that comes off of the chromatograph, as I as I mentioned, and this is what happens when it goes through the mass selective detector, it is hit by the electrons, it is broken into pieces, and each one of these lines that are marked here with a number represents one of the pieces that is broken from that original.
Basically, if you can imagine you’ve got a rock and it’s hit by something very hard and it breaks into many pieces, right, some will be big pieces, some will be smaller pieces. So this one that is marked “314″ actually represents a mass, so it is a large piece. This one down here that is marked “43″ is a small piece of mass. So there each of these individual so in other words, if you have delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, it is hit by this beam of electrons, you’ll get this pattern all the time, every time, and that is why we can say that is what it is, it is consistent.
Q Thank you.
MR. FOWLER: My Lord, I am going to ask that that be marked as an exhibit. I appreciate we don’t have copies for counsel unfortunately
MR. MOORE-STEWART: I was going to ask if we could have at least one of them. They are fairly identical, are they?
A Yes. Yeah.
MR. MOORE-STEWART: Could we have one of them for the defence team here to go through?
THE COURT: Well, I want it copied before we make it an exhibit, Mr. Fowler.
MR. FOWLER: I’m certainly prepared to do that, My Lord. I can have that done. I’m if we wish to stand down I can
THE COURT: Why don’t you conclude your direct exam and then we we can have it done over the break.
MR. FOWLER: Certainly. Thank you.
Q So now, Mr. Taylor, you’ve described how the instrument, particularly that second analysis provided you with a fingerprint, if you will, of a specific substance. Can you tell us what it was that substance matched, what that
A Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol.
Q Thank you. And I’m going to ask you just a little bit now if you can tell us essentially what kind of measures you would have taken, or you did in fact take, with respect to these analyses to, for example, prevent any contamination of the samples that you used?
A Well, that that’s just a matter of good laboratory practice, and what we do is we analyze each individual like what is in an exhibit envelope, we’ll do that individually. Like we don’t sort of lay out a whole bunch of samples together. They will be done individually and separately so that for that very reason so that you don’t get cross contamination.
And we use our glassware I might add too; our glassware is all brand new glassware. So we don’t wash it and reuse it from except for some of the other items most of our glassware is just brand new. So I shouldn’t say it all is, but some of it is, and the others is is washed obviously thoroughly.
Q And so while you were conducting the analysis on these particular samples were you would you have been simultaneously conducting an analysis on anything else in the same place?
A No, not like I said, I’ll I’ll be doing each one individually for that very reason. Especially if they are very similar samples you don’t want you don’t want any contamination. And you’ll you know, it is good laboratory practice to clean your area where you are you are working and use whatever materials as clean as absolutely possible.
Q And, Mr. Taylor, can you tell us, do you do you know how common, I suppose in the scientific community, it is to use these kind of tests for this sort of purpose?
A It is well recognized for these type of tests, yes, very well recognized. There is much there is a lot of literature using these very the very same techniques.
Q And do you know, for example, are is this are these the same instruments that would be used in Health Canada labs across the country?
A Yes. We don’t have identical instruments in every single site in Canada, but we are working towards that. Most of them do have the same instrumentation. So what that means, of course, is if you take a sample into any of our four sites and run the test you’ll get the same results.
Q And just to have it clear on the record, there are a total you say of 11 [sic] copies of the records you made from the the second analysis that you did, the ones that you just a copy of
A Yeah, one for each exhibit
Q Exactly.
A – that was run.
Q Can you tell us what each of those indicated when you performed the analysis for each?
A Each every single one of them indicated or didn’t indicate it it’s tetrahydrocannabinol contained tetrahydrocannabinol.
Q And so they all produced virtually identical
A Yes.
Q – spectras [sic] as it were?
A Yes.
Q Thank you. Those are all the questions I have, and please answer any questions my friend may have.
THE COURT: All right. I think it is time to take the break before you start, Mr. Moore-Stewart.
MR. MOORE-STEWART: Yes.
THE COURT: Would you please arrange to make photocopies of each of the chromatograph test results?
MR. FOWLER: Yes, absolutely, My Lord.
THE COURT: You just want one copy, Mr. Moore-Stewart?
MR. MOORE-STEWART: Yes.
THE COURT: Just one analysis?
MR. MOORE-STEWART: Yes, just one copy.
I was hoping the break might be a half an hour just so I would have a chance to go through this new material with my expert we’ve never seen including his notes.
THE COURT: All right, 12 of them?
A I believe there is 12, yes.
THE COURT: Twelve copies and one one copy for Mr. Moore-Stewart. And would you make six copies of one of them so that the jurors can have this while
MR. FOWLER: Certainly.
THE COURT: — while Mr. Moore [sic] is conducting his cross-examination?
And then as soon as we reconvene we’ll mark mark it as an exhibit we’ll mark them as the next exhibits.
Ladies and gentlemen, we’ll take an extended break so Mr. Moore-Stewart can prepare his cross-examination. So we’ll reconvene at approximately 11:30.
(JURY OUT)
(WITNESS STOOD DOWN)
(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)
(PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)
(JURY IN)
BRIAN TAYLOR
recalled.
THE COURT: All right. Do we have the material here?
MR. FOWLER: Yes, My Lord, I’ve got the originals that Mr. Taylor had been referencing in his evidence.
THE COURT: All right. Is there any order of it?
MR. FOWLER: They there are numbers. I see there is a sample name the fourth line down on the first page
THE COURT: All right. Well, they they are all they are all consistent with the H numbers, correct, H number envelopes?
MR. FOWLER: I’m not sure that the H number envelopes are actually listed on the
THE WITNESS: No, they are not listed on there.
THE COURT: They are not?
THE WITNESS: But they are the numbers that are on the piece of paper there are lab numbers, which are consistent with the H envelope numbers.
THE COURT: All right. Well, Madam Clerk, you didn’t want a lunch hour today, did you?
THE CLERK: No comment, My Lord, thank you.
MR. FOWLER: If it is of some assistance, My Lord, I don’t know that we entered it as an exhibit, but Mr. Taylor had referenced the notes or labels that he had, which contained both the H numbers and the lab numbers that appear on the on the exhibits that we are tendering now, so those that could be attached and then there is an easy way to cross reference.
THE COURT: Mr. Moore-Stewart.
MR. MOORE-STEWART: I confess that I’m quite confused and wanted to question this. We have the police officer who testifies that he sent H or 12 H envelopes; then we have the analyst that says that he’s analyzed 11 and I’m kind of interested in knowing what why this discrepancy, so . . .
MR. FOWLER: I
MR. MOORE-STEWART: — may have some questions in that regard.
MR. FOWLER: — I don’t recall the evidence coming out that way.
THE COURT: No.
MR. MOORE-STEWART: I thought he said 12, and I thought he counted 12?
THE COURT: Right.
MR. MOORE-STEWART: That is my recall.
MR. FOWLER: I think the evidence has been consistent, that there 12 envelopes submitted and 12 analyzed, but that’s
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FOWLER: — my understanding.
MR. MOORE-STEWART: Oh, I thought he said 11?
THE COURT: There is a there is a
THE WITNESS: No, I didn’t say
THE COURT: There is a chromatographic graph
THE WITNESS: I don’t think so.
THE COURT: — for 12 samples, is that right? You should have 12 graphs.
MR. FOWLER: Yes, My Lord, that’s that’s what I’ve just provided Madam Clerk.
THE COURT: All right.
All right. Well, Madam Clerk, this is what we’ll do, the document that Mr. Taylor referred to that has a record of the H number envelopes and the lab number assigned by Mr. Taylor will be Exhibit 20?
THE CLERK: Thank you, My Lord.
EXHIBIT 20: Document containing H envelope numbers and lab numbers re exhibits
THE COURT: And then would you take the the graphs, and those are three page documents each?
MR. FOWLER: Yes, I should
THE CLERK: They appear to be two page documents.
THE COURT: Two page?
THE WITNESS: Oh one one has two, all the others have three.
THE CLERK: Thank you.
MR. FOWLER: Yes, My Lord, I was just going to point out Mr. Taylor pointed that out when I was making the copies at lunch and I he can explain why that is, if that would be of assistance, but it’s I think just simply a matter of a page not being printed.
THE COURT: All right. Well, let’s get that on record so the jury understands why there are three on 11 and two on one. What why why has this happened?
MR. FOWLER: Certainly. Well, would you prefer to have Mr. Taylor
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FOWLER: — provide that for us?
EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. FOWLER, CONTINUING:
Q Mr. Taylor, can you tell us, I think it is I’ll provide you with the exact number.
A Fifteen, I think, is the one.
Q Number 15?
A I think that is the one.
Q Right, yes. And I’ve just got a copy of it here. Can you tell us exactly what it is that is attached and what is missing and I guess why it is?
A Yeah, what what this one this particular one when I did them I did them in kind of a hurry, because of course I had court the next day, and what I did was I each of the individual ones what I would print out would be what is called the mass spectrum, which is a series of lines here, and I also printed out the what’s called the gas chromatograph part, which shows the peak which refers to these these lines as as they appear here. And for this one here, for some reason it didn’t get printed. I printed like one after the other.
THE COURT: Okay, when you say “this one here” that doesn’t help me very much.
MR. FOWLER: Sorry.
A This one
THE COURT: Identify it.
A Okay. This is this one is 0013815, that is my lab number, which I can give you the H envelope number if
THE COURT: Please
A Okay.
THE COURT: — as you’ve got it handy.
A Okay. I will. And the the H envelope number for that one is H1507381. It was just an oversight on my part.
MR. FOWLER:
Q So perhaps just for clarity, Mr. Taylor, you can tell us exactly what is attached to that one particular printout?
A What is attached is the what we call the header information, which identifies the sample, which has the what we call the lab number, the 0013815 on it, and my initials, and the second part is the search result, that was a search that was done on our computer system on the peak that I it’s unfortunately not printed out here, but that peak will give the mass spectrum, and then I’d search that on the libraries that we have on our on our computer system. So this is actually just the search result and it is the mass spectrum from that particular sample.
THE COURT: When you say “this” you are referring to the second page of the document of the
A The second page, yes, that’s correct.
MR. FOWLER:
Q So one of those spectra, if you will, refers to the actual sample and one refers to the
A Yes, and it actually has
Q – [indiscernible/overlapping speakers]
A – if you look at it, it will give the actual sample as a data file, what is called a data file, and it will on the top one will be 0013815.D, which means a data file, and the bottom is the actual the standard that we compare it against on the bottom one.
THE COURT: All right. Madam Clerk, the these chromatograph graphs will be exhibits 21 through 32.
THE CLERK: Thank you, My Lord.
THE COURT: And they will be consistent with the H numbers.
THE CLERK: Thank you, My Lord.
A Do you want this one back?
EXHIBIT 21: Data printout sample 0013825
EXHIBIT 22: Data printout sample 0013816
EXHIBIT 23: Data printout sample 0013817
EXHIBIT 24: Data printout sample 0013818
EXHIBIT 25: Data printout sample 0013819
EXHIBIT 26: Data printout sample 0013820
EXHIBIT 27: Data printout sample 0013821
EXHIBIT 28: Data printout sample 0013822
EXHIBIT 29: Data printout sample 0013823
EXHIBIT 30: Data printout sample 0013824
EXHIBIT 31: Data printout sample 0013825
EXHIBIT 32: Data printout sample 0013826
MR. FOWLER: In addition, My Lord, as I had indicated prior to the break, I did make six copies to provide to the jury. They are all of the same one spectra, or samples from the same exhibit, and it is the same one that I’ve given a copy to my friend.
THE COURT: All right. Just distribute that to the jury so they can look at it at their leisure, please.
Mr. Mr. Moore-Stewart, cross-examine?
MR. MOORE-STEWART: Yes, My Lord.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MOORE-STEWART:
Q Mr. Taylor, you say you’ve done twenty to 25,000 samples in your career of cannabis marihuana?
A Yes, cannabis marihuana, cannabis resin
Q But only
A I’m sorry?
Q – only 40 to 50 for THC?
A Yes, and the reason for that is the THC is a is an individual analysis and and what happens is the reason that I’ve only done 40 to 50 for THC is because they are what’s happened is the samples are either too weak “too weak” being they are very young cannabis material, and you only you can only see one of the techniques that we use, which weren’t used here, is thin layer chromatography, and some colour tests that we do to normally identify cannabis marihuana.
And if for some reason we compare that we compare the thin layer of chromatograph to the standards, the five cannabinoids that we run as standards, if we don’t find enough of them then we don’t call it cannabis marihuana. This is kind of a side issue, but that is why on those ones, which were a little weaker, you would always see the tetrahydrocannabinol and so then to confirm tetrahydrocannabinol what we do is run them on a mass spectrum, mass spec MS mass selective detector.
Q All right. So just to clarify again, you didn’t use the thin layer chromatography technique?
A Not on these ones, no.
Q And you
A I did on one of them actually, but not on not on all of them.
Q The sample is too weak for young plants and things like that you say, would you explain what you are talking about there?
A Well, it is actually the way that the I’m not a botanist, so I’m just going on what I’ve read, but my understanding is when they are when the plants are very young and very new they haven’t exuded the resin, which contains the cannabinoids on their leaves, or usually it is on the underside of the leaves, and so there is a very small amount of the resin there, which contains the cannabinoids.
And so using our instrumental techniques, or our thin layer chromatography techniques, sometimes you can’t see in other words they are very weak, it is hard to see them, so that is why we would use a more sensitive technique, mass spectrum.
Q So when it is more of a trace situation you don’t use the the thin layer chromatography?
A Well, we we do it as a screening [indiscernible/coughing] we are on a different topic in a sense, because we are we are talking about cannabis in general, but yes, when when you we do the thin lawyer chromatography to look for the cannabinoids that we are we are looking for. If you don’t see them or you they are very faint, then we’ll go to the mass spectrum.
Q Well, did you do a microscopic exam examination of this material?
A No, because it was a cookie, and what I examined actually was the the staining from on the paper from the cookie itself, which I’m assuming was from an oil.
Q Did you do any of the cookie itself?
A I don’t believe so.
Q You I your lab uses something called a standard operating procedure, does it not
A Yes, it does.
Q And I’m going to show you a copy of what I believe is the standard operating procedure that is used by your lab. Can you identify it?
A Yes, that is.
Q And I’m going to
A I’m just looking for the date on it because it sometimes they get changed over
Q Would you please check it out?
A I’m not sure. Oh wait a minute. Okay yeah, this this one was in effect its last date of
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